Re: [Jack-Devel] JACK on mobile

On Wed, October 16, 2013 5:47 pm, Stéphane Letz wrote:
> Patchfield?
>
> http://google-opensource.blogspot.fr/2013/09/patchfield-for-android.html
>
> https://github.com/google/patchfield
>

This thread is not intended to be a discussion about Android and the
support or lack thereof for *existing* open source professional audio
solutions like JACK or Pulse Audio from developers who are paid by Google.
It's about the OTHER Linux Mobile Platforms that already run Pulse Audio
and the task of getting JACK onto them as a alternative solution without
forcing users to jump through hoops and/or fight with the various PA vs
JACK issues.

There is another option that hasn't been discussed in detail, which is
running JACK on top of PA on mobile devices that use PA as the default
audio management layer. If people round here feel that is a viable
solution then I guess that answers my questions about the priorities of
JACK developers in regards to the OTHER mobile platforms that already run
PA by default.

Just in case I didn't communicate myself clearly enough and anyone is
still having trouble understanding the topic of this thread, the issues I
am seeking to address are around running JACK,  the namesake of this
mailing list, on mobile operating systems that run *Linux* and have
already chosen *Pulse Audio* as the default audio management layer.

There are currently two options on the table:

1: Optimising PA to allow JACK and PA to coexist peacefully and
efficiently on the same system
2: Extending JACK to support Bluez, Murphy, PA API and a commitment to
ongoing maintenance of those extensions to ensure JACK is a drop in
replacement for PA when it is in use on Moblie OS's that already support
PA by default



--
Patrick Shirkey
Boost Hardware Ltd




> Stéphane
>
>
> Le 16 oct. 2013 à 08:21, Patrick Shirkey <[hidden]> a
> écrit :
>
>>
>> On Wed, October 16, 2013 7:02 am, Paul Davis wrote:
>>> Patrick, with the greatest respect, I think that you are totally
>>> barking
>>> up
>>> the wrong tree here. And I mean, really the wrong tree. Everything you
>>> are
>>> talking about doing seems to add up to a set of band-aids that all fail
>>> to
>>> address the core problems with audio on Android. Audio on Android is
>>> just
>>> fine unless you care about latency. None of these proposed integrations
>>> with PA are going to make it a platform that can begin to compare with
>>> iOS
>>> for music/pro-audio apps.
>>>
>>> Ironically, I was talking to a guy at Google who was trying to hire me
>>> yesterday and I (mostly joking) said "the only thing I'd want to do at
>>> Google is fix audio on Android". He then tried to convince me that he
>>> could
>>> make that happen.
>>>
>>
>> Actually this has nothing at all to do with Android. Google do not
>> support
>> Pulse Audio and they have made it clear that they do not support JACK
>> either. I think it is a dead end trying to get Google to change their
>> position on that. They have proven with both Android and Chrome that
>> they
>> care very little for the work that has been done on JACK for
>> professional
>> audio.
>>
>> This is about getting JACK onto the *other* Linux mobile platforms that
>> already support PA by default.
>>
>> Tizen, Ubuntu Mobile, HP WebOS, Jolla, etc...
>>
>> The only way to make that happen is to address the various issues
>> outlined
>> in this thread.
>>
>> I know for a fact that I am not the only person in the whole world who
>> wants to see JACK running on mobile platforms other than iOS.
>>
>> JACK is a very powerful and flexible solution for professional audio. If
>> you think that it is actually inferior to coreaudio I will have to
>> politely disagree with you.
>>
>> We have two choices.
>>
>> 1: Add support to JACK so that it can be a drop in replacement for PA
>> 2: Optimise PA so that it can provide the most efficient combination
>> while
>> JAK is running
>>
>> Which is the preferred option and who is going to do the work?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> --p
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 3:27 PM, Patrick Shirkey
>>> <[hidden]
>>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> Recently there have been discussions about the viability of getting
>>>> official JACK support into the mobile audio stack. Currently JACK is
>>>> left
>>>> out of the mix and Pulse Audio is the default audio system layer.
>>>>
>>>> For most consumer mobile use cases this is not a problem but when it
>>>> comes
>>>> to professional audio and some specific cases with very hard time
>>>> limits
>>>> for the audio graph JACK can actually be preferable over the PA API
>>>> and
>>>> logic.
>>>>
>>>> A few things have been identified that make it hard to just drop JACK
>>>> into
>>>> the mobile audio stack at this point.
>>>>
>>>> 1: Bluetooth support especially for hands free audio
>>>> 2: "Murphy" system daemon support
>>>> 3: Dealing gracefully with apps that use the PA api
>>>>
>>>> On the PA mailing list we have identified several optimisations that
>>>> can
>>>> be done to PA that would allow PA and JACK to coexist peacefully and
>>>> cause
>>>> minimal system disruption from the developer/user perspective.
>>>>
>>>> However, they are mostly required to allow JACK to run and that is not
>>>> a
>>>> core priority for the PA developers. On the other hand it seems that
>>>> JACK
>>>> developers are not going to be interested in spending time on
>>>> optimising
>>>> PA.
>>>>
>>>> So this leads to a slight issue. Is it likely that JACK will be able
>>>> to
>>>> support both the Bluez and Murphy API's in order to be a drop in
>>>> replacement for PA while it is running on a mobile OS? Or is it better
>>>> to
>>>> put the time into optimising PA so that we don't have to double up on
>>>> development efforts considering that the PA developers already provide
>>>> Bluez and Murphy support and are funded to work on that part of the
>>>> audio
>>>> layer?
>>>>
>>>> The optimisations that would enable PA to work better with JACK are
>>>> not
>>>> trivial and will require some pretty heavy thought and a fair sized
>>>> chunk
>>>> of time commitment to make them happen.
>>>>
>>>> Its possible that we could get some assistance from the Linux
>>>> Foundation
>>>> for the development process if we have a good plan and they agree that
>>>> it
>>>> is an important project. In addition several of the PA developers work
>>>> at
>>>> Intel and Ubuntu so there might be some support from those areas to
>>>> provide a fully professional and highly optimised audio stack for
>>>> Linux
>>>> based mobile OS's.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Patrick Shirkey
>>>> Boost Hardware Ltd
>>>> 
>>>> Jack-Devel mailing list
>>>> [hidden]
>>>> http://lists.jackaudio.org/listinfo.cgi/jack-devel-jackaudio.org
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Patrick Shirkey
>> Boost Hardware Ltd
>> 
>> Jack-Devel mailing list
>> [hidden]
>> http://lists.jackaudio.org/listinfo.cgi/jack-devel-jackaudio.org
>
>


--
Patrick Shirkey
Boost Hardware Ltd

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